#249 Pitfalls of Portfolio Growth with Jason Hull of Door Grow

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Jason Hull is the founder of DoorGrow a Property Management consultancy. He shares his insights on the struggles that PMs and landlords face with growing portfolios.



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Resources Mentioned in this Episode

DoorGrow Website:
https://doorgrow.com/

DoorGrow Show Podcast:
https://doorgrow.com/show/

Show Transcription:

Jason Hull: 00:00 If they take on really bad owners, these are the ones that are basically slumlords. They’re pushing back on everything. They want to do everything as cheap as possible. So then the property manager becomes kind of a crap shield for a slum Lord, which is a really uncomfortable place to be as the company or as a business owner because now your reputation is negatively impacted.

Eric Worral: 00:18 Before I forget, I wanted to cut in just to say congratulations that you’re the first guest who said a crap shield between you slumlord.

Jason Hull: 00:28 Usually it’s more colorful language, but I don’t know what you want this rate it on iTunes.

Eric Worral: 00:31 Yeah, right.

Music: 00:32 1,2,3,4 ya ya ya…. Welcome to the RentPrep for landlords podcast. And now your host, Steven White and Eric Worral.

Eric Worral: 00:36 Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of RentPrep for landlords. I’m your host, Eric Worral. And this week we have a guest on the podcast, Jason Hall of Door grow. How you doing Jason?

Jason Hull: 00:54 I’m doing great. Thanks for having me, Eric.

Eric Worral: 00:56 Yeah, thanks for being here. So, uh, I actually connected with Jason and his team, uh, when we went down to the Florida NARPM annual conference last September, and then reconnected, you know, via this digital world that we live in and talking about having him on the podcast. And I thought he would be a great guest because you have a lot of experience working in real estate and specifically their property managers and a lot of just past experience of speaking at events. And, uh, before I kind of just start butchering what it is you do, Jason, give us a kind of a 30,000 foot view of what your company does at door grow?

Jason Hull: 01:31 Yes. So the real simple version of what we do, basically I take property management companies that are struggling to grow and uh, we rehab their business so that they can just like, uh, you know, a landlord or a homeowner would rehab a property so that it could rent role effectively. We’ll rehab a property management company so that it can cashflow properly and it can grow. So…

Eric Worral: 01:54 So when you’re working with a property management company, they usually come to you because they’re either flat lining or decreasing in business and then your company helps find them new leads essentially for people that are looking for property managers.

Jason Hull: 02:06 Well yeah sort of. So a lot of people will come to us looking initially they think they just want leads. And so one of the big myths or challenges in the property management space or in the industry is that most of them, their version of a lead, doing air quotes for those listening, their version of a lead is word of mouth. That’s what they’re used to. And word of mouth has really high close rate and a short sales cycle time. Like it’s easy to close them. And so what one of my favorite things to do is help them understand that the dramatic difference between cold leads and warm leads. And usually when you go to a marketing agency, the best thing they can deliver to you is cold leads. That’s it. And cold leads. The difference between a cold lead, a warm lead is whether they know you trust you and like you and, and the close rate on a cold lead is maybe like one out of 10, right? Maybe 10%. If they’re, you know, really at sales they might hit a 30% close rate or something. But cold leads generally are garbage and you know, is their perception. So they’re, if they’re used to warm leads and they go ask for cold leads, we used to do this, we would do advertising and Seo marketing stuff for them and then they would pay per click and we deliver leads to them and they’d be like, these are terrible compared to what we’re used to. And so what, um, I think what’s really important for people to understand is that, um, about 70% of single family residential in the US is self managed. And that means only about 30% are professionally managed. And, um, if we contrast that to Australia, 80 almost 80% of single family residential is professionally managed. So it’s quite the opposite.

Eric Worral: 03:50 I think I read before is that because it’s just so highly regulated in Australia

Jason Hull: 03:54 Um, part of it’s regulation, part of its, um, land like a landlord insurance and some of these products that are now starting to hit America. But basically there’s, um, the risk level is a little bit higher there. And I think also the perception, um, here in the US as far as risk is probably not accurate. So I think a lot of landlords don’t realize how much risk they’re placing themselves in. And um, and legislation really is on the, it’s coming, but it really has been the wild west of, you know, in, in the u s I mean, you’ve got, in some markets you don’t even have to have any sort of license or anything. In order to manage properties, there’s a few states, you don’t have to have even a real estate license in order to manage rental properties. You can just set up a sign and say that you do it. And these are some people’s biggest investments ever. Um, and then in most other areas of the US um, the only qualifier to be able to legally manage properties is to get a broker’s license, which really is completely irrelevant to property management. And so there’s no clear indicator just by the fact that somebody can set up shop, that they might do a decent job or legally be compliant or know what they’re doing and there’s a lot of potential pitfalls. And so, um, so I think those are some of the, some of the differences. And I think what’s really helped the US back in terms of growth because Australia grew 25%. The property management industry grew 25% in 10 years. Like in single decade. US property management’s been around for a while and it really hasn’t changed much in the last two decades. Um, you know, as far as, uh, as far as growth or awareness. And so the two big challenges in the industry here is first perception is a big challenge. So if people are aware there’s kind of a negative perception but the even bigger challenge, the biggest challenge, even bigger than that is just awareness and very few homeowners are landlords are aware property management and the ones that are have a negative perception about property management.

Eric Worral: 06:03 Well I would say that there’s really, it’s almost like negative all the way down cause I feel like sometimes your landlords, there’s negative perceptions of them. I mean if you start googling the word landlord, I don’t think your top hundred results are going to be pro landlord stories, you know, and then landlords have a negative perception of property managers, just, just these people that are eating up their profits that aren’t really delivering, you know, on what they said they’re going to deliver on. Um, for somebody listening, I mean cause you deal with so many property management companies is, are there telltale signs of how you know that you’re dealing with professional company versus maybe someone, like you mentioned that just decided one day to start managing properties and never really got any kind of training?

Jason Hull: 06:42 Yeah, I mean I think, you know, you bring up a good point that even the landlords or the homeowners, they have a negative perception as well. And I think a lot of what’s driven that, that perception is caused by people not doing a good job and not knowing how to do a good job. Really managing property is death by a thousand cuts. There’s just so many potential points of failure and I think um, landlords really are operating as a part time property manager and if they’re really honest, they’re operating as probably a pretty crappy part time property manager. It’s not a focus of theirs, it’s not their full time job. They don’t have a lot of awareness. They’re not studying landlord tenant law. They fall into a lot of traps and make a lot of mistakes. They’re not responsive. And this is where a property manager as a partner can really help turn those rental properties into like that myth of having a turnkey investment. They can make that myth reality. They can take that off their plate. Because I guarantee anyone listening to this, whether it’s a landlord or property manager, if you see an angry tenant showing up on your caller id on your phone, you probably wished somebody else was dealing with that. And property management companies, they can take that weight off your plate and they can also calm those fires down significantly because they can be far more responsive. And, um, and so I think with property managers, the way to tell the difference between good ones and bad ones, there’s a lot of different factors. Like I said, there’s death by a thousand cuts I think in that industry. Um, and so I think some of the things to pay attention to is if they are the cheapest ones in their market, and this is maybe what a lot of landlords, a big mistake, they’ll go look for the cheapest guys. The cheapest companies are ones that work themselves and back themselves into a financial corner in which they can’t effectively manage. They’re not really doing a legit job. They are, um, they just, they don’t have enough revenue and cash flow to be able to hire enough staff to do a good job. They’re not doing the inspections that they claimed they might do, you know, they’re not, and they’re the ones that get property management a bad name.

Jason Hull: 08:56 Um, and so I think a good property manager is confident enough in their service to charge a really, you know, decent rate and they’re not trying to be the lowest price guys in the market. You really in property management get what you pay for in a lot of instances. And it’s, you’ll see a lot of property managers get to about 50 or 60 units in single family and you get stuck as a solopreneur and then that’s kind of the sand trap. I call it the first sand trap they fall into. And the only way to get out of that is usually, usually at that point they’ve got 50 or 60 units. They under management. That’s as many as they can handle all the maintenance requests on and leases on and, and dealing with the marketing of the properties. And they’re just tapped out and they’ve got too many doors in their portfolio that are too difficult to manage. The owners are difficult to deal with, um, of the properties. And so what ends up happening is they’re not setting really good expectations. They’re not, um, they’re not firing clients. And so they have a portfolio of bad properties. They fall into this trap I call the cycle of suck. And the cycle of suck in property management with companies as they take on. And this is where the industry as a whole really sits unfortunately, is they, they take on any owner instead of being careful about who they take on as a client. And if they take on any owner, some of these owners are going to be, want to feel safe and feel confidence and they’re not going to get it from these companies that are low prices. So they’re going to try and micromanage these companies and say, become really difficult clients to deal with. And they take a lot more time, which means their operational costs is higher. Not only that, but if they take them really bad owners, these are the ones that are basically slumlords. They’re pushing back on everything. They want to do everything as cheap as possible. So then the property manager becomes kind of a crap shield for a slum Lord, which is a really uncomfortable place to be as a company or as a business owner because now your reputation is negatively impacted.

Jason Hull: 10:56 Then So the first step is to take on any owner crappy owners. The next step is they have crappy property. So even if the property’s newly remade remodel, that’s amazing. If the owner bad, the property is a bad property for them. And the reason being is the next step is they take on bad tenants or they have bad tenants. And so every property manager and every landlord thinks they do great tenant screening and they’re going to say they focus on tenant screening. But you could do all the tenant screening in the world. You could get a grade credit, perfect tenants with lots of income and if the property is bad or the owner is bad and pushing back on things, that tenant becomes a bad tenant for the property manager and so if you have bad owners, bad properties, bad tenants, then you’re going to have a bad reputation. You’re going to have owners and tenants that are unhappy with you and your reputation and your market’s going to be bad. And this is where the whole industry generally sits in aggregate is there’s a lot of property managers that have taken too many clients at too low of a price point. Too many clients that are too difficult to manage and their operational costs are 10 times higher than that of a property manager that’s a little more cautious about who they deal with and who they take on. One bad door. One bad property and property management is easily 10 times the amount of work is a good door.

Eric Worral: 12:13 Yeah.

Jason Hull: 12:13 They need to be careful about what they allow under the portfolio, the areas that they’re willing to manage, the types of clients they’re willing to take on to avoid getting into that cycle of suck.

Eric Worral: 12:22 Before I forget, I wanted to cut in just to say congratulations that you’re the first guest who said a crap shield between Slum board.

Jason Hull: 12:30 Oh, well you should use more colorful language, but I don’t know what you want this, rate it on iTunes.

Eric Worral: 12:35 Yeah. Right. Yeah. It makes complete sense. Everything that you’re saying. It’s kind of a, and the other thing that you said that kind of stuck out to me was kind of the, uh, the lie that a lot of people tell themselves. So I forget what the stat is, but it’s something like 90% of drivers think they’re above average driver.

Jason Hull: 12:51 Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Worral: 12:51 So we all had this… Yeah. And it probably the same can be said for landlords and property managers.

Jason Hull: 12:58 Absolutely.

Eric Worral: 12:59 I like to think that people that listen to this podcast or maybe listen to your podcast at the door grow show are above average because they’re taking the time to educate themselves and they’re kind of separating themselves in that way. Um, but yeah, when you’re looking at the whole just landlords and property managers on general, there is a spectrum that exists and what you’re describing is that people kind of start falling into pitfalls and traps where maybe they make one bad decision or they overextend themselves, whether they’re a landlord or property manager. And then it just starts to kind of snowball into this worst situation where now that tenant that maybe was a good tenant seems like a bad tenant just because of the construct that you’ve built for them is making them behave that way. Right?

Jason Hull: 13:41 Yeah. And the problem with property management is if you do one thing poorly, it ends up being hundreds of people that you’re doing things poorly with. So if you have a bad process for qualifying the types of owners you take on as a property manager or as a landlord, you have a bad process for the types of properties you decide to bring into your own portfolio with a property management company that could equal hundreds of bad situations, hundreds of doors that they’re, they’re overseeing and managing. I’ve had clients that had, um, I had one client that had 600 units under management and wasn’t even profitable. And I asked him, how’s that possible? I said, well, our real estate company, which it’s attached to is doing three mil a month in real estate. And so he had this cancerous tumor on the side of a really healthy real estate company. And that’s why property management really, if you have one significant leak in the business, it gets multiplied by every single client that you have. And so that’s why it’s really critical. And the only way out of that, a lot of times for me to coach clients to fire some of their customers, they have to fire some of their clients and fire some of their doors. And because if they fire one bad door, it frees up room them operationally the handle 10 good ones, maybe even more. And so it just it and become profitable because their operational costs or it can be really high.

Eric Worral: 15:00 Would you say for a landlord listening to this that’s thought about hiring a property manager? Uh, if they talked to somebody and they are a staff of one and they say they have more than 60 doors immediately, it’s kind of like starting to be a red flag. And if they say they’ve got 100 doors, it’s kind of like, all right, how could this person possibly do doing this by themselves or…

Jason Hull: 15:19 Not necessarily. So the thing is, is, um, usually when they get to that 50 or 60 doors sand trap, if they can’t break pass that, what ends up happening is that they’re losing a door about as often as they’re getting a door. And so I’ve seen people stay there for years just not growing before they reach out to us. Um, and then we’ve helped them like blow past that. But if you see a property manager that largely is a solopreneur and they’re managing over a hundred doors, then they have to by default, you already know they’ve escaped the cycle of suck. They’re, they’re in a place where they are really focused on the types of doors they want to manage. They’re very careful about that, what they take into their portfolio. Either that or they’re just in a really high rent, high end market where it naturally kind of avoids a lot of the challenges. So yeah, but it is rare that you’ll see that and um, that somebody is managing over a hundred doors and there basically a solopreneur

Eric Worral: 16:16 okay.

Jason Hull: 16:17 Even husband and wife teams a lot of times where you’ve almost got a free worker, you know, um, you’ll see them maybe get to maybe 80 or so, um, single family homes under management and they’re kind of stressed out and tapping out. So, um, and they can’t afford to hire anybody. That’s the real challenges. They can’t afford that really big expense of hiring their first team member. And so the only way out of that is to fire some doors, double down, get some good doors on, and then they can start to break past that. But the thing to realize is that there’s 70% of available potential market share. I mean there’s 70% that are self managing. And so for property managers, if they’re focused on the big challenge that causes this, another big challenges, they’re spending a lot of their, um, discretionary revenue or income for in their business towards marketing to try and grow their business to trying to get out of this problem.

Jason Hull: 17:13 And they’re spending it on stuff that isn’t working. So they’re doing SEO and they’re doing pay per click and they’re doing content marketing and they’re doing social media marketing. Meanwhile, there’s this huge awareness problem so people aren’t even aware of property management. So spending a bunch of money to say we’re the best property manager in Tucson, it doesn’t really make a big difference if everybody going, what the hell’s that? You know? So, and then the next challenge is perception is, so if there’s real negative perception, then um, then people also aren’t like looking for property managers and so, but there’s 70% available market share. So what we do is we shift a lot of our clients’, so it is going after that blue ocean instead of fighting where every property management company is over the coldest worst leads that come through Google. And that arena is bloody, I mean search volume for property management is a key word according to Google trends has been on a decline since 2011. Summer of 2011. It’s been going down. It hasn’t really increased since 2004 when Google started tracking data. But competition in the property management space for keywords and for Seo and paperclick has gone through the roof because of marketing agencies. And so all these marketers and web design companies, they’re all pushing everybody towards Seo. And I dunno if listeners won’t be able to see my shirt here. But, um, that’s why I made sure to say Seo won’t save you and it’s got a little life preserver with a hand reaching up out of the water somebody drowning because all these property managers think that Seo is their savior and they’re trying to do SEO and manipulate Google. And they just think, if I could just have that top spot in Google, and that’s the equivalent of going to Vegas, trying to make a fortune on the slot machines. Isn’t, um, it’s a gamble and there’s going to be one major winner and it’s usually going to be Goliath. And David’s going to get his butt kicked any day of the week if he tries to do the same things and use the same weapons that the biggest companies are using. And so they need it. And it’s real simple. They just need to go out into that blue ocean, start connecting with investors that have real challenges long before they’re looking for a property manager and start creating relationships.

Eric Worral: 19:21 Yeah. So you, maybe you don’t have to give away the secret sauce, but as far as door grow goes, so you’re not helping people really just say, hey, we’re property managers, we can be your property management. Like are you finding a investors earlier in the process or how you connecting to them to those investors that you were just talking about?

Jason Hull: 19:36 Well, I mean we’re really transparent. Like we, before we even take on a client, because we don’t want to fall into the cycle of suck either, right? So we actually have people watch an hour and 45 minute training that teaches them some of our principles and concepts and then showcases our whole process. And our goal is that after that they’re either really excited and want to work with us and they know exactly what they’re getting themselves into or they think, well, I could probably do it myself. And that helps them. Like it helps us avoid the people that are the most difficult to work with, that we really wouldn’t be able to help because they would think they know better throughout the whole process anyway.

Eric Worral: 20:12 Yeah.

Jason Hull: 20:13 So basically our process in a nutshell is we’ll take a property management company and our goal is to identify all the major constraints or leaks that exist inside of their sales pipeline, all the way from awareness at the very beginning, all the way through to closing a deal and getting a contract and in the sales process or sales cycle. And so if we’ve identified what we feel are like maybe the five or six most significant leaks that exists there, and if we can clean those up, what ends up happening is it’s a lot easier to build trust, create awareness, and grow their business. And then once we get that leak short up throughout this hose, so to speak, um, so that water flowing through it, then instead of turning on the spigot of marketing, which they could do, we coach our clients to shift towards prospecting methods like real estate, investor groups, um, foreclosure auctions, um, you know, these, these sorts of situations in which they can connect with investors long before they’re searching on Google and create relationships and be a resource for them. And that is a situation which they’re able to, Jen, like do one to many sales instead of hoping for a one to one sales opportunity that’s really cold.

Eric Worral: 21:23 Yeah. Yeah. I like what you’re saying because before we got on the call, we’re saying that we both have marketing backgrounds and I used to work with a roofing company and we did pay per click advertising with them and you can record the calls and listen to the calls afterwards to see how they’re doing. It was through Google ads. So this company was spending tons of money on Google ads and then the person, she was very sweet. I knew she was a matter in the office, uh, who is answering those calls would get, you know, somebody saying like, hi, I’m looking for a roof quote. And she’d go, um, uh, okay. Okay. Uh, hold on, hold on, hold on one second. And then put somebody on hold for like three minutes. And I’m sitting there listening to this recorded call. Like, oh my gosh, this is such a waste of money. So what you’re describing is the process all the way through. If somebody’s, you know, it’s not just about more leads, it’s about how do you nurture a lead, how do you bring them through, how do you close those leads that you’re talking about in the funnel and getting somebody the other end of wanting to trust you and do business with you.

Jason Hull: 22:19 Absolutely. I mean it’s, sales happens at the speed of trust. That’s it. And so if you can create more trust. So if the website for example, is one of the major leaks that we tackle with clients, we do website design. And if the website is focused on trying to manipulate Google, instead of trying to build trust and create trust and doesn’t have things like social proof and lead capture and trust symbols and, and, um, here of photos and you know, it doesn’t feel transparent and it’s not creating and building a relationship then and it’s just trying to manipulate the search results, then, uh, it’s not going to convert as well and it’s not going to get capture as much business.

Eric Worral: 23:01 Yeah. So I have question. We were talking about this before we got onto the call that sometimes you, uh, you find people that are really good at managing properties, they’re managing their own properties, so maybe they’ve got 5, 10, 20 or whatever, and maybe they’re the resource to their friends who are always running into issues and they’re always asking them what they should be doing. Uh, you said that sometimes you’ll counsel people on why they should start their own property management company because they’re good at it and there’s potential for them to make a full time career out of that. Uh, how does that relationship usually go? Or what do you tell those people that might be thinking about that or thinking that they may have a future and property management?

Jason Hull: 23:40 Yeah. So, um, I can kind of excited about those people. So if they are managing a certain number of units and they’re doing a good job and they care about the tenants and they actually enjoy doing the management side of things. I think that there’s a lot of investors out there. Well, they’re probably weird. I mean that’s a little bit different that they might enjoy doing that. But those people, um, can easily turn that into a business. And if they love real estate investing, being a property manager gives you debs on all the best real estate investments, you have access to a constant influx of potential properties these owners are going to sell sometimes. Sometimes people are reaching out because they’re accidental investors. They want to offload this, this door, this property, and in the next year. And so you have this constant access to potential deals and investments. And so as an investor, it’s a gold mine. Uh, but if you enjoy managing properties, not only can you do that for your own properties, but you can do it for other people. And it’s a business that can be systemized. It’s systemizable, it’s a business that creates residual income. It can be built over time. And so you’ll see a lot of real estate agents that just get tired of the chase and the hunt and the hustle and closing the next deal, wanting to finally build something that’s stable and has residual income. And if they do it right and if they do a good job, they can build a business that, um, it can grow pretty quickly and it can be very profitable. And so there’s a lot of tools and resources available like rent prep and like other vendors and things. There’s a lot of great systems and tools that are available when you have scale, these property managers have access to you that the average landlord just doesn’t.

Eric Worral: 25:24 Well, I think one of the things you mentioned too is that kind of system be built around it. And from talking to property managers over the years, the ones that are really fine tuned, they’ve built their systems to the point where they’re just kind of, they’re not in the weeds at all. They’re not handling any calls, they’re not handling any issues. They’ve got a team that’s running all their support for them. And I know like, uh, Brad Marson comes to mind. he’s been a guest in the podcast where, you know, the guy, he, he likes to golf, he’s out on the golf course if decent amount because he’s built that system. He has an awesome business to support, you know, his dreams and what he wants to do. So I think sometimes when people think of becoming a property manager, it’s like, why would you want to do all of the worst aspects of real estate investing? You know, just dealing with the people and the issues. But you can start there and learn how to grow that business and use somebody like yourself, door grow, uh, to teach you how to do that and really have a business that works well for you. That’s very scalable.

Jason Hull: 26:19 Yeah. I mean, the one thing that we don’t teach clients is how to manage properties. And so if somebody knows how to do that, they know how to do that well, they understand landlord tenant law, they figured this stuff out. They can manage, we can help them figure out how to win. Which is probably the biggest challenge that exists in the industry is figuring out how to win in property management. There’s lots of really great property managers out there. They really do mean well and they want do a good job. But if they’re spending the bulk of their marketing dollars or money towards marketing and it’s not working and getting them a return and they’re not growing and they don’t have growth, the first thing to go out the window when you’re lacking cashflow is customer service. And this is what perpetuates this bad perception of property managers in the industry is because they’re trying to do what everybody says should be working and it’s not.

Jason Hull: 27:08 And so our mission at door grow is to shift people away from just focusing on this vitamin pills, so to speak, the supplement of Seo and paperclick and getting them doing the basics like eating food and drinking water if they’re trying to grow and build their business. You know, and so we want to focus, and I’m speaking metaphorically here, but um, all we want to get them to focus on that blue ocean and get them focused on the, um, that 70% available potential market share in which there’s less competition in which they can grow fast or they can build real relationships. And, um, and if we help the best property managers win I believe that good property management can change the world, it can have a massive impact. If you think of all the renters out there and all the rental properties, there are thousands and thousands of families impacted by the decisions that are being made by the landlord or by the property manager. And if property management of managing properties has done well, you can have a huge ripple effect, um, which affects the nation economically, which affects families, which affects people’s pressure and noise in life. And it also has a big impact on the families of the homeowners if it’s done well and manage well and their families and their finances. And so, um, that gets me excited. There’s a really big ripple effect that we can have by having hundreds of property management companies that are doing it well and succeeding.

Eric Worral: 28:34 Yeah. I love that. Uh, I couldn’t agree with you more a, I’ve talked about that before on the podcast where it’s just the impact that even one property manager can have on a community is substantial. So, uh, if they’re doing it right and they’re growing, uh, both of those are a recipe for a better community that people could live in. So, uh, Jason to close out to be our podcast here, what’s the best way for people to reach out to you and get connected with your company?

Eric Worral: 28:58 Yes. So the easiest way to get connected with us just to go to doorgrow.com we are, you can find doorgrow just about everywhere and those that are seriously considering are really serious about starting a property management business that are really good at managing properties and understand landlord tenant law and you know, serious about this stuff. Um, they, we would love to invite them to join our community. A property management business owners called the door grow Club. They can get the doorgrowclub.com which is kind of the community for our podcasts and they, they’re also welcome to check out my [email protected] So the door grow show, you can find it on youtube, you can find it on iTunes. And, um, and so they can check out are podcasts as well. And then we also do an annual conference called doorgrow live. So yeah, I’m all over it.

Eric Worral: 29:52 Door grow live. Is that Saint Louis? I’m trying to remember.

Jason Hull: 29:55 We did a conference in our first inaugural event was in Saint Louis. We had about 150 property management entrepreneurs there. We brought in some awesome speakers like Mike McCollough whites who wrote profit first and the pumpkin plan. And we had Alex Charfen who’s an awesome, phenomenal, $1 million plus business coach. And then, um, and then we brought in three Australians that we’re experts in property management and um, and we brought in a gentleman who was just an amazing person to building sales teams and, and so yeah, we just, we had a phenomenal conference and um, and we’re looking at doing it again this year and it’s going to be in November in, at the Broadmoor in Colorado Springs.

Eric Worral: 30:39 Okay. Very cool. All right, Jason, well thank you for your insights and your time being on the podcast today. And yeah, guys, check out those resources. If you’re thinking about starting a property management company or you just want to start doing things right from a lead generation standpoint and trying to grow your property management company from width and check outdoor grow. And, uh, thanks so much for being on the podcast today, Jason.

Jason Hull: 31:07 Eric, really appreciate you having me. Thanks. Take care.